Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
Posts: 6137

Conflict does solve things, If your side wins, it solves your problem...

eg. world war 2.

We won, they lost, problem solved, phone soon, premium search....oh wait, thats a car insurance advert, but you get my point.

The NF in France doesnt really have anything to do with it, what about the NF here? I mean, there will always be idiots, whatcha gonna do?
Let us not discount the fact that military force CAN sometimes solve problems, instead of falling for the old cliche that force can never work.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

Of course conflict often causes new problems...

...Like the post-WWII power vacuum in Indo-China leading to the Vietnam War in all it's incarnations.

Violence/war is merely a tool. Properly and correctly used, it can be a problem solver. Incorrectly used and it causes even greater problems.

As to the ideas/problems remaining...

...If a group doesn't have the will and/or resources to fight, the problem is moot. The peole with the ideas/problems are helpless. If they do have the will and/or resources, the conflict continues.

Basically, to win, the cost of continuing to fight and resist has to be too great to withstand and going along with the other side has to be easier...

So, the Argentines aren't in the Falklands, the Americans don't drink tea (much), and the Brits never learned to goose-step.

War did solve something.

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- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: England Elvenname: Ainari?l Telr?nya
Posts: 6157

OK, well, I guess war does solve somethings, but I'm still against it in principle. Yes, I know what you're thinking ... But then, WWI, violence only lead to WWII...

Either way, I'm way outta my depth, know nothing about the army or the NF, so I'm really not the best person to discuss this with.

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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: On the other side of the planet
Posts: 690

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deathbunny:
So, to end all chance of war, either everyone that thinks differently must be put to death, strong feelings about anything must cease, or everyone must think absolutely alike.

---

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

quote:

---

Originally posted by kiya


If everyone were to think in exactly the same way, there would be no progress, no development, no evolution. Diversity is what drives us; what brings about change.

---

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- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

You too can be *NUKED*! Ask me How!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
Posts: 6137

c'est la vie.

As long as they dont come thumping on my door.
Id say its still a good few hundred years before the pursuit of knowledge, science and understanding takes us out of petty religious squabbles.
Of course thats if we arent all dead, blah blah blah.... we need Will Smith, Jeff Goldblum, an archaic Apple laptop and an alien invasion force now!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: South, US
Posts: 2379

*Decides to drop in two cents worth*

About this whole conflict not solving anything part....

People must understand that you can't talk out problems all the time, exspecially when it's two countries, Man hasn't evolved that far yet or understand that much. You can't work out your problems with people like Hitler or Osama, they'll just run you over. You have to take them out of the picture and work it out with people willing to think, such as the whole "seeds of peace" type people. They are the future of area's like Israel/Palestine.

If it's someone that thinks it's fine to molest little boys and girls or that killing other people because they make them angry is okay, than NO it's not okay.I don't know if you know this, but there is a book saying almost this very thing out right now.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

I'm not surprised.

I have a dear friend that was a victim of it and it's scary enough second hand.

Some people simply need to be removed from society.

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- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

You too can be *NUKED*! Ask me How!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2928

but doc, it is knocking on your door. What about the differences between the Catholic and Protestants; that isn't a world war, but it's still a conflict that is harming people and destroying property simply over ideals. It's not that much different than the Judaism vs Islam conflict - just fought in a different way.

'War' over land or property, or the right to rule, i can understand. Dont often agree with it, but hey, you cant please all the people all the time, right? But religious wars frustrate me so much - i cant get my head around their mentality, their reasoning, and the intensity with which they fight to uphold their beliefs (Jihad anyone?). Defend, yeah sure, but to actually instigate a religious war.. *shakes head in wonderment*

I am not a person who is against past wars - i have a lot of respect for the military, its role in defence and peacekeeping, and i also know that the world woud not be what it is today without the conflicts in the past - exploration, industrialisation, colonisation, the development of science, and the changes to society that has come with all of that.
But it's not a matter of 'where would we be' if the wars of the past had not happened, especially if the reasons for them starting were still there, just not acted upon - it needs to be a scenario of complete peace, acceptence, love - all that tree hugging hippy crap - before we can even begin to speculate what our world would be like without war.
War is an effect, not cause. I think this world would be even more seriously fuked up if these past rivals hadn't 'got it out of there system'. It's like a bunch of testosterone jacked guys who need to vent and punch the crap out of each other - better they get it over and done with than let it build up and create even more resentment and hatred.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

Just a philisophical point...

...Cause and effect is a simplistic pipe dream.

War is both an active factor and a passive factor in a cycle of human nature and existence.

OK, beyond that...

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- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

You too can be *NUKED*! Ask me How!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2928

this is a quote a like from DOGMA, seems to apply.. kinda..

Serendipity: When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
Posts: 6137

War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Thats all there is to it.
There is also the matter of being brought up from birth being taught to believe a set of ideals, rules etc.

The problem with the middle east is that even if they may have a valid cause, they are going about it in such a fashion that is counterproductive to the cause.
The place is filled with uneducated masses and idiotic grandstanding leaders...
Now theres nothing wrong with grandstanding, aslong as youve got power to back up your words!
The problem is its not just about the issue at hand, its about deep seated hatred, older arab men who have actually said that its ok to kill families in bombings, but if a Jew were to do that to an arab family, that would be wrong. (of course it would be, but he was talking from a religious moral standpoint, that a muslim family being killed means something, wheras jewish people should be exterminated)
Now when people like this are in control... what can you do?

Its actually quite funny, I remember watching a startrek episode where good old Picard says something like,
"history has shown that you can never fight terrorists with military might"

I wonder if that will ever change...

In later episodes, those very terrorists were annhilated... by a superior force, a force which had no qualms about destroying entire planets etc....

Is that the kind of mentality, brutality that we will need to complete the objectives?
Would we be prepared to even go there?
How far will we be pushed?


Time will tell.

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Last edited by president doc on 04-29-2002 at 09:21 AM

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
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JK!, good one, but alas, I have little faith...

The Palestenians have power.

Lots of it.

It's found in the will to die for a cause and the world's opinion of Israel.

The problem for them is, while it keeps the Israelis from coming out ahead, it also keeps the Palestenians from winning and it's going to make a post-war Palestenian society a dangerous place.

Look at the Northern Ireland debacle. No intentional suicide bombings, the IRA is actually disarming, but the idea you can use bombs against civilians to get attention/power is still there...

Anyway, like I said way up there:

"As long as two groups of people feel strongly about mutually exclusive ideas and are willing to kill* for them...

...You have the ingredients for war.

So, to end all chance of war, either everyone that thinks differently must be put to death, strong feelings about anything must cease, or everyone must think absolutely alike. "

__________________
- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

You too can be *NUKED*! Ask me How!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
Posts: 6137

Or you could all cede power to a benevolent president who will take care of all you sweet sweet children!

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: England Elvenname: Ainari?l Telr?nya
Posts: 6157

My point about war.

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