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president doc
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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
Posts: 6137

Its all a game of cards, even that game of cards they play in their spare time..what is it? solitaire? anyway.
Inspectors are going to be let in, and there are two outcomes, complete cooperation or arsing around.. if he arses aroung, there will be an attack.

If he has no weapons, there will be no need for him to arse around.

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Old Post 10-03-2002 09:18 AM
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Queen Lou
I'm singing in the rain..

Registered: May 2002
Location: Fishing
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The one prob is, how do you know he has no weapons? If they aren't allowed to inspect presidentual property (which they weren't the last time I looked but that was a fair while ago), then he could have them all stashed there.

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Old Post 10-03-2002 12:16 PM
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president doc
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yeah yeah, thats why if he doesnt allow them in there, it would be considered "arsing around"

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Old Post 10-03-2002 12:20 PM
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Bose-Einstein
The 3rd Libra

Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3403

I agree with what JK said, America is just looking for any excuse to get rid of Saddam, and as a result they keep chaning the goal posts to somehow try and appear justified. That's precisely what they were getting all up in arms about with Iraq. When Iraq kept changing the goal posts originally. America (and Britain, we're not innocent either) should get ready for the use of force, but should not do a thing without proper UN mandate. I mean, look at us, going on about what a horrible dictator Saddam is... yet at the same time, our very own leaders are willing to A) Defy the UN B) Invade another country and C) Defy popular opinion among their own people. We (America and Britain) are agressive dictators in this situation. Our leaders are just as bad as Saddam on many counts, but few seem to realise that.

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Old Post 10-03-2002 03:57 PM
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Lee
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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: South, US
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quote:
America (and Britain, we're not innocent either) should get ready for the use of force, but should not do a thing without proper UN mandate.
In and ideal world the UN would take care of business but most of the time it just looks to see what the US, and for some part Britian, will do. Sadly the UN is just a debate group, they won't do anything. The UN should be in there making demands of Iraq being this has been going on for 9 or so years, not just the US, not just Bush and not jus Blaire.

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Old Post 10-03-2002 06:56 PM
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Deathbunny
"Mostly Harmless."

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

The goalposts are "A reasonable sense of security".

These haven't really changed.

The administrative and diplomatic lines change on occasion, but that's to be expected.

And, considering the massive effectiveness of the UN as a body in the protection of US security and interests...

Anyway, given the type and state of the Iraqi government, thare doesn't seem to be anyone that can take over his shoes and be as dangerous. The most likely response to Saddam is an interim government, possibly one more amenable to the imfluence of more moderate states, both in the Middle East and beyond.

Also, while you try to point out similarity in actions between the US and Iraq, you need to remember the reason and otherwise general reluctance of the US to commit troops to anything near combat without something major.

That and (except for some remnants of the Spanish-American War) our reluctance to keep captured territory or maintain positive control over conquered areas.

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"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

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Old Post 10-03-2002 08:09 PM
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president doc
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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: London.
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And now for something completely different.

teehee http://digitalart.org/misc/curious_george.jpg

(I remember seeing this before it became bad to poke fun at the guy, atleast things are getting back to some sort of normality, now we just need that book of bushisms published )

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Old Post 10-03-2002 09:05 PM
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Bose-Einstein
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I dunno. It just seems like a run of the same affair again. America doesn't like something in the Middle East/Arab world. America does whatever it needs to in order to march in, bomb, change a few things, then leave country to rot. Again and again it happens, and Americans are surprised when something like September 11th happens. I'm just surprised it hasn't happened more often.

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Old Post 10-03-2002 09:07 PM
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missile
i said peanuts

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Leeds, England
Posts: 277

also why does America & their so called allie Britain demand the destruction of nucular wepons when they have a huge aresenal of nukes ourselfs ? to qote Orlin " many creators of the first atom bomb truly belived it would be used to maintain peace " yet the US uses its wepons of mass destruction to maintain war if you know what i mean.

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Old Post 10-04-2002 09:56 AM
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president doc
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As much as you think its hypocritical, Nukes are safer in the hands of a few large powers than the hands of many small unstable regional powers.

The nuclear genie is out of the bottle and the problem now is proliferation... which has to be stopped somehow.

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Old Post 10-04-2002 09:58 AM
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Queen Lou
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Registered: May 2002
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The nukes don't scare me as much as the bio weapons. I think I would rather a nuke dropped on my head then to die from a plague. But then again I guess you're just as dead either way I think the real worry with them is that they can't be controlled very well. There's so many easy ways of spreading the diseases that if anything gets out we're stuffed. The only way we can really be safe is to either destroy them or control them. And either way we have to get Suddam.

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Old Post 10-04-2002 12:09 PM
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president doc
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Im sure youd rather have a nuke dropped on your head, however im sure the people living between 4 and 50 miles away from the dropped nuke, i.e outside of the immediate death zone, wouldnt have the same thing to say

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Old Post 10-04-2002 01:00 PM
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Deathbunny
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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1416

quote:
Originally posted by missile
also why does America & their so called allie Britain demand the destruction of nucular wepons when they have a huge aresenal of nukes ourselfs ? to qote Orlin " many creators of the first atom bomb truly belived it would be used to maintain peace " yet the US uses its wepons of mass destruction to maintain war if you know what i mean.


Actually, the nukes that were dropped were to end a war against a people that were preparing to fight to the last child...

(Look up what the Japanese did on Saipan, IIRC. "No Prisoners" and it was them making sure it wasn't)

As to the US/UK other "1st World" nuclear powers...

It's a matter of responsibility and culpability.

Those of us that have them understand the cost of using them and act accordingly to avoid having to use them.

This includes diplomacy, security, avoiding direct "hot" conflicts with other nuclear powers, and limiting other's access.

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- Deathbunny

"Truth requires no belief and Belief requires no truth."

"Our actions support our beliefs, but without our beliefs, we have no justification for our actions." - J. Wheeler

"Everything has its own place and function. That applies to people, although many don't seem to realize it, stuck as they are in the wrong job, the wrong marriage, or the wrong house. When you know and respect your Inner Nature, you know where you belong. You also know where you don't belong." -From "The Tao of Pooh"

You too can be *NUKED*! Ask me How!

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Old Post 10-04-2002 09:34 PM
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Rithmah
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quote:

We (America and Britain) are agressive dictators in this situation. Our leaders are just as bad as Saddam on many counts, but few seem to realise that.


None of our leaders are as bad as Saddam on any count. Saddam is a dictator in his own right, with a lust for power reminicent of Milosevic, Stalin, and Hitler. He desires power for himself, he believes himself superior to others, and he will destroy anyone who gets in his way.

Recently, I believed that the United States should not act without prior approval of the UN when it comes to sending in a force to invade Iraq. Now, I believe the UN to be a group of impotent bureaucrats unable to enforce any mandate they present to countries in violation of their "regulations." All they can do is impose sanctions. Iraq tried to solve that problem by invading Kuwait and capturing its booty. What stopped that? Military force.

Saddam is a very dangerous man with very dangerous motives. You cannot rationalize with him like you would rationalize with, say, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Japan, or Australia. Why? Because he is totalitarian. He's in it for himself - his own personal power and glory. He uses fear and terror to rule. The above mentioned countries are democracies, and they are not ruled by the sword (or gun). Their goals are focused on the good of the people.


quote:
America doesn't like something in the Middle East/Arab world. America does whatever it needs to in order to march in, bomb, change a few things, then leave country to rot. .


A similar scenario happened about sixty years ago. The United States saw something they didn't like, did whatever they did to march in, bomb, and change a few things. The difference is, they called that World War II. And we didn't leave the countries involved to rot. Instead, they were offered democracy rather than a dictatorship. The result: Democracies that haven't been to war since and enjoying a thriving economy with peaceful relations.

This is something that needs to be done to Iraq. Saddam is a timebomb waiting to go off, and he needs to be gone. Any pre-emptive action will bring criticism, but if we do nothing, what will be the results? If only we'd thought of doing this when Hilter first rose to power...

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Old Post 10-05-2002 12:12 AM
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Bose-Einstein
The 3rd Libra

Registered: Dec 2001
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America is not the world's Policeman. More than that, it acts too often not in the interests of the external parties involved but in it's own interest, despite how it tries to paint the situation. I disagree with what you have to say about the UN, simply because Bush isn't the slightest bit interested in the opinions of the UN or the outcomes of negotiations. This was evidenced in the fact that first of all Bush got up and demanded the re-admittance of inspectors, then as soon as Saddam said "Sure, no problem" Bush got all up in arms and said "That's not good enough!". Saddam gave him what he asked for (when Bush didn't expect him to) and so Bush looks for some other excuse to invade and overthrow Saddam. See, the problem is not that Bush wants to overthrow Saddam because he wants to free the Iraqi people and make them happy. He only wants Saddam out to get a far more US friendly leader in. Sigh. I sometimes wonder. Whenever you speak to Americans you only ever get that same "America is great, other countries are crap and evil and ruled by dictators or commies" attitude. I only ask that you see both sides. The world can see America's aggression. It seems that only America itself fails to see it. I am at the moment far more concerned with the aggression of America than any rogue state. I see America getting a taste for regime change and imposing it's will on any country it doesn't like the look of.

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Old Post 10-06-2002 06:46 PM
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